has anyone tried this stuff (in a beer or straight)? it's touted as the "missing link" to that elusive dubbel flavor. i don't doubt the claim, but i tried some last night (straight) and i tell you, if i didn't know otherwise, i'd think i was eating molasses. very strong brown sugar flavor, but little else to distinguish it from just that.

at $8 a bottle at my LHBS, i suspect this is another unnecessary expense in the production of belgians, when you could achieve the same or better flavors with molasses, brown sugar, or caramelizing your own table sugar.

I was one of the "beta testers" in the states for importing the stuff. I really think the stuff is worth using if you're looking for that Belgian Dubbel flavor. You will want at least a bottle for each 5 gal batch, if not a bit more.
The ppppg on the stuff is 1.031 or there about. The label will be changed to reflect that. The color as it is now is listed as 150L, that is not the case. It's alot lighter than that.
Give it a shot.

FWIW, the number for color has been pretty much settled at 80 as of a week or 2 ago. I'm planning a dubbel for next weekend using a bottle.

i'll certainly try it in a batch before i write it off. we all know how raw ingredients can change throughout the brewing and fermentation process. i was just struck by how much it tasted like plain old molasses. i'm admittedly biased by my view of the white candi rocks, which i believe to be nothing more than severely overpriced chunks of table sugar (both in actuality and effect on your beer).

>> Denny said: "FWIW, the number for color has been pretty much settled at 80 as of a week or 2 ago. I'm planning a dubbel for next weekend using a bottle. "

WHAT???? How many times have you been Mr. "sugar is sugar" kinda guy??

--/\/\--

Has anyone tried to make their own syrup with Karo and Ammonium Carbonate as described by Mosher?

I'm brewing with it, using Chimay yeast in a dubel sometime this weekend. I'm probably going to use 1/2 the bottle and 1/2# of piloncillo. So, far I've liked the flavor piloncillo provides. If this liquid sugar stuff tastes anywhere as good post fermentation as it does straight from the bottle, this beer will be awesome!

Off topic: I find it funny how we tend to do things in waves on this board. Up until now I didn't see this discussion but was planning on doing what some other folks on here were doing. Odd coincidence?

Seems to happen quite often. That several of us decide to try something at the same time. Wierd.

Zane

Oh, one more thing. All of us that tested this stuff in the beginning swapped beers and had an online tasting. One thing we noticed was that it made a difference in the flavor profile depending on when it was added to the boil.
But for the most part we found the best flavor came from adding the srup in the last 5-10 minutes of the boil.

Thanks for tip on adding the syrup, N8!

Yeah, Matt, 90% of the time that's my attitude. But after tasting this stuff (and N8's beer made with it), it's definitely gonna make a difference. FWIW, I used some turbinado in my recent Biere de Noel. That stuff tastes fantastic raw. I'd like to think it made a difference in the tsate of the finished beer, too, but with a 4 1/2 hour boil, it's hard to tell what contributed what....

Hello,
Just wanted to chime in here.
My company imports and distributes the syrup.

I think this is a great opportunity to test our product.
sweetloaf: I will send you the syrup you need for your beer, if you will brew a split batch between the syrup and molasses. Assuming of course that you will publish your findings, good or bad, here on the tastybrew website.

Regarding color:
Tests were performed at Siebel which resulted with an SRM of 1000. Of course this is wrong, just as the SRM rating of dark candi rock sugar is 275 SRM. The current rating of 80SRM was supplied by Drew Beechum. The gravity rating of 1.031 is from N8.( Thank you) We feel that user feedback is more valuable than lab work and will help everyone.

If anyone has any comments or suggestions, please contact me at mercer@darkcandi.com
We will publish your comments on our new website.

Best regards,

Brian Mercer

Hey Brian,
Good to see you chime in with more accurate specs.
When does the new label take effect?

Brain, thanks for dropping in! I'll be using the syrup for the first time this weekend and I'm really looking forward to it. I'd like to get my LHBS to carry it. Should they contact you directly or do you have a distributor?

Hi N8 and Denny,
We are working on the new label, which will be ready in a week or so. As far a distribution goes: any LHBS can contact us thru our website or orders@darkcandi.com
Also, we will have new candi syrup in a month or so.

Again, Please let me know if you have any suggestions that you would like to see on the website or the label.

" Has anyone tried to make their own syrup with Karo and Ammonium Carbonate as described by Mosher?"

I've carmelized honey using that procedure and it was a real kick to watch. I think I took the first batch of it too far into carmelization so, I didn;t use it in my Honey Porter so , I got more honey and did it again more on the lighter side and it was wonderful. I plan on doing it with some corn syrup next time and use it in a Belgian Dubbel or Dark Strong Ale.

brian - you've got yourself a deal. only, i might split the batch between the syrup and home-caramelized sugar, as that would seem like a closer approximation. or heck, maybe i'll do all three!

i'll give you my address on the side if you write me at sweetloaf6 at yahoo dot com

while we've got you, maybe you could educate us a bit on how this syrup is made (unless, of course, there are trade secrets involved, though i'm sure the process is involved enough that it'll still be easier to pick up a bottle)? i have read that it is the byproduct of the process used to make the purified rock candi, which would place it close to molasses (as a byproduct of purified cane sugar). this information fed my suspicion it was in fact a kind of molasses, until i realized it was made from beets, which of course have none. so there's a lot of molasses-like flavor coming from a sugar with none of those cane-derived impurities. can it all be from caramelization? something else? share what you can.

and by the way, i love the picture on your website.

what's the chances of seeing this listed as an ingredient in the calculators?

The short answer is:
White refined beet sugar is heated and at a certain point in the process, rock sugar is formed and removed. What is left is syrup. The rock sugar has the least amount of color and flavor. The syrup on the other hand...
I believe that molasses is the collected salts and some sugars removed from the beets during the refining process. I am sure a molasses expert can help me out with this.
Sweetloaf, when you recieve the syrup try the two side by side and let us know what you find. Or all three, candi syrup, molasses and homemade syrup.
Also, glad you like the photo. I carried this bottle across asia on a recent trip to test our new packaging. No leaks! Bryguy, great idea. I will get to work on this.

I have used it in two beers, two bottles per beer. I am far from an expert in any sense, but I thought it tasted significantly different (and much better) than when I used either brown sugar or molasses (cannot remember which) in an old ale. The taste is better to me. Period. I would say it is worth it. The only thing is that in the Rochefort clone two bottles was a bit much with the Special B and perhaps the other specialty grains (but still good). In the Westvleteren clone two bottles worked better, I believe because of the simpler grain bill (Pilsner, 2-row, and Dark Candi Syrup). It is still phenolic for whatever reason, and I have never had ACTUAL Westvleteren 12, but it is similar to St. Bernardus 12 only not as smooth and without any roasted character (St. B 12 uses a minor amount of a roasted grain).

The bottom line is that I think it is worth using. Stan Hieronymus seems to be pretty keen on it was well. N8's Westvleteren clone (with Rochefort yeast) has gotten some rave reviews as well, even earning the compliment that it is better than actual Westvleteren fresh from the monastery. Those guys are much more experts on this stuff than I could even pretend to be.

-Cheers

Brydude,
If you have ProMash you can make your own syrup addition in the calculator.
Not sure about the others.

N8,

1. Is your westvleteren clone recipe online?
2. Are you Nate Sampson as mentioned in the Northwest Brew News (or whatever that is called, I am usually drinking when I read it)?

1. Not sure, but I can post it. It's pretty flippin simple.
2. yes, I think.

Here's the Westy Clone. Based on what Stan H. found out with his Brew Like a Monk research:

7.5lbs Dingemans Pils
7.5lbs Dingemans pale
16oz. candi syrup
0.7oz Northern Brewer 7.0%AA @ 60min
0.9oz Hall. Hersbrucker 4.8%AA @ 45min
1.0oz Fuggle 4.5%AA @ 30min
WY1762
Matched the Westvleteren water profile
Sacch rest @ 148F for 90min.
OG 1.080
FG 1.012

N8,
This sounds interesting. If I can't get dingemans here, will I be pretty close with briess? What temp did you ferment at? I assume this is for 5 gallons. Where did you find the water profile for westvleteren, what are the basics(Cal, Mag, Alk)? Do you feel it would be similar with a 60 min sach. rest?

Ok, let's see.
Dingeman's is the malt that most of the Belgian brewers use. But if you can't get it go for the best pils and pale malts you can get.
I started the ferment at ~68F, then let it rise to about 78F. I believe Westv. let's it get up to the mid 80's.
Then after a couple of weeks racked off of the yeast and cold conditioned for a few more weeks.
Water profile for Westvleteren from BLAM:
Ca 114
HCO3 370
Mg 10
Na 125
SO4 145
Cl 139

You can do just a 60 min sacch rest but it would turn out more like an IPA.

I was in the beta group w/N8 - split a batch 3 ways using the syrup in one, regular rock candi (dark/amber) from the lbhs in the second, and panocha/gula jawa in the third.

IMO, the syrup made a difference - all three were decent beers (could have used a little less Spc.B/Caramunich), but the syrup one was closer to capturing a true Belgian Dubbel.

for the record, i was refering to Tastybrew's calculators.

some very reputable endorsements. i'm excited to try it.

any recommendations to speed-age a belgian? i'm sure we don't want to wait six months to a year (my customary aging time for any high-gravity beer) for these results!

Yea, Sweetloaf,
It's called a time machine.

Can't rush a good thing.
But for the most part, you can brew it, cold condition it for a few weeks and it should be pretty good by that point.

really? i've never had a high gravity beer (particularly belgian) that didn't have considerable yeast bite for the first few months. in fact, most don't taste "right" till about six. something i'm not doing?

Denny, I am planning on doing your Chimaybe soon. I was goning to replace the candi sugar for the syrup. From what I've seen and read I should just go lb for lb in the trade. You have any tips for your Chimaybe? Ferment temps of anything else?

Mark

I've used the candi syrup a couple times now and it's fantastic stuff! I've tried making my own darn syrup and it just doesn't come close.

N8's Westy clone was probably the best damn homebrewed Belgian beer I've had the privledge to taste - and it only had pils and pale with the syrup! Sheesh, I just bottled a Nostry "clone-like" attempt that had wheat, pils, a TON of special B, and 1.75 bottles of the syrup. Its kinda over-the-top right now, but I'm hoping with some aging it will morph into something special.

Joe,
That that wasnt one of the beers N8 sent for us sample was it?

No sir. I had hit 'em up for an exchange a while back and he kindly exchanged some of his Westy's. Matt Jarvis wrote something to the affect, "Yeah N8, your beer didn't suck..." So I figured it was good.

The ones we tried were a Kasteel clone and RIS - both excellent beers. And I'd like to point out, Greg Rosace makes a killer IPA.

>what's the chances of seeing this listed as an ingredient in the calculators?

It's in brewthology. I had submitted it to Brad at beersmith for public use, but I doubt he's made it available. You can manually add it to promash or beersmith.

Mark, I'm doing pretty much the same thing your are next weekend...doing a version of the Chimaybe with the syrup, but using 3787 instead of Chimay yeast. The biggest tip I can give you if you're using 1214 OR bottle cultured Chimay yeast, keep it cool! It gets VERY estery above about 65F.

I think I will try the 1214 as I have used the 3787 before. Try something new and see what I think between the two. So are you just using 1 bottle of the syrup? I think that will be my plan.

Mark

Yeah, I only have 2 bottles and I want to try it on a Rochefort clone, so I'm hoping 1 bottle for each batch will be OK.

So... where can we get our hands on this syrup? Or is it not available to us "masses" yet?

I read about it on Stan's website a while back, and have occasionally pinged the darkcandi website since then. I'm biting at the bit here!

I'm also going to drop an email to my LHBS and see if they can't get on board with it. I know a couple of guys in my club like to do belgians quite a bit.

http://morebeer.com/product.html?product_id=6788

If Brian Mercer is still listening: any thoughts/plans for larger sizes?

It's already available in a tad bit bigger than 16 ounces.

http://www.callzia.info/BBB/Brooklynette/source/img_7835.htm

Also,
http://www.northernbrewer.com/sugars.html
or
http://www.midwestsupplies.com/products/ProdByID.aspx?ProdID=7151
or
http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?cPath=178_21_73_405&products_id=10808

As far as larger sizes go, what sounds good? 32 oz?

I would say yes to that Brian.
I think that if some one was wanting to do something along the lines of a Westy 12 or other higher gravity Belgian they would want to add two of the 16ozers, or simply get one of the 32ozers.

Any idea on where youd get those very large jugs of that stuff? Is it sold by the pound or the gallon?

Stopped by the LHBS yesterday and gave 'em your email info and a big plug for the syrup, Brian! Hopefully, they'll pick it up and I can start getting it without maliorder!

N8 -

My Xmas pollyanna gift was a gift cert to my LHBS where I merrily picked up the ingredients for your Westy Clone and I had a few questions.

- The LHBS was a mad house and were out of NB, so I subbed Perle for the 60 minute addition - should I wait until the NB's are in?

- As for the water profile, I am not advanced enough (or have the patience) to match the Westy profile. Is this critical? I have been successful with my tap water using campden tabs.

- Never made a starter to this point, just pitched - any recommendations on size?

- Not to sound stupid, I am assuming that you add the Candi Syrup to the kettle just before boil? Should I soak the bottle in warm water to thin it out?

I am a newbie (sort of) with A/G (6 batches or so) and this is my biggest batch yet - any tips you can provide? I am hoping to brew this monster on Thursday evening....

Big thanks - Happy Holidays to all -


--FB

Oops, just read about the syrup addition...

Sorry!

Frank,
If you can't get N Brewer, I would think that Perle might be ok. Haven't tried it, so I can't comment personally.

For the water, It's hard to say without knowing your waters profile. If you have made good beer with it before, then i would say it's fine for this beer. I'm a stickler for trying to recreate the water profiles for certain styles. It's not always neccesary, but I like to think that it helps. Even when I don't add water additions, they still seem to turn out fine.

For a 5 gal batch, which i'm assuming youre doing, a 2L starter would be sufficient. Make a 1.035ish gravity starter for the yeast to chew on.

Add the cany syrup in the last 10 minutes of the boil. You can let the bottle sit in hot water to thin it out. I do that on cold days.

mash for about 90 minutes, give it a good 90 min boil as well. Be patient with Belgian yeast, it can take awhile, as in several weeks, to ferment out. Don't be afraid to let the ferment temp get nice and warm. I will usually start my belgians at 65F and let it ramp up to around 75F. Then cold condition it at 30F for a few weeks.

i've just been silently watching this thread, but any updates on the brews mentioned above from November would be most appreciated. thanks!

Yo - thanks for the replay N8!

I wound up scoring the NB hops, so I am right on point with your recipe. However a 2L starter may take a few days, not to mention I scored a 2000ml Erlenmeyer flask for $12 complete with airlock, stopper and some FBI agent giving me the eye as I left the LHBS.

While I am trying to get this in by the end of '06, I don't think the starter will be ready to go....

..Or I can pitch the smack pack and go with it...

Hey Denny - any input based on your dubbel from around 11/17?


Thanks for all of your help!

If you have a smack pack, toss that into 2L worth of starter wort and it will be ready in a day or two. But since it's a gravity over 1.060 I wouldn't suggest pitching without a starter.

So, do you regularly have FBI agents watching who leaves the HBS????

Now that you have the E flask, all you need now is a stir plate. You can easily make your own. Those will increase your cell count in shorter time. A good thing all around.

Interesting results from NB on the different sugars in the link below.

http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?t=39139

Cool, thanks!!

As for the FBI agent, the LHBS is in South Philadelphia, and I think he was on lunch or something. It's not everyday someone is walking down the street with an Erlenmeyer flask in Philadelphia unless they are up to something illegal...

I'll look for the stir plate info..

Many thanks - Happy New Beer!

How do KNOW it was an FBI agent? Did he show you ID?

As to the dubbel.....it's quite tasty, but next time I'll definitely add some Special B for a bit of depth. All the flavor now comes from the syrup (quite identifiable) and the 3787 yeast. While good, it's a bit "shallow". Hopefully, I can get N8's opinion on it Mon. when I see him. Next use of the syrup, I think, will be 2 bottles in a Rochefort kinda thing.

I'm a Federal Boob Inspector and I have an FBI hat to prove it.

I wasn't too far for the Federal bulding and the jacket and the sidearm kinda gave it away

So am I good to go with the Westy clone recipe? Or am I gonna need some Special B? Denny - you're scaring me here!

After putting the numbers in to Promash, the SRM looks a bit light (I haven't had W12, but I am comparing it to St. Bernardus 12)..

Westy don't need no stinkin' Special B. Denny's was a diferent brew, IIRC.

But if you're going for the Westy 12 you will need more syrup.
The one I made is more in line with the 8. Kind of a Westvleteren 9, if you will.

The 12 is actually only about 10.8%ABV these days, so just jack up the malt a bit and add another bottle of syrup to get an OG that will give that kind of ABV, which would be about 1.100ish.

Yeah, I used the syrup for a dubbel. Besides being kinda one dimenasional, the color was also pretty light. I fixed that by just adding a couple oz. of Sinamar to the keg!

I'll be fine with a W8+. W12 can make for a very short morning!

I think my tap marker will read Westphldelphian (I grew up in West Philly) - of course all appropriate credit given to N8 for the recipe!

Speaking of the dark candi syrup.

I just listened to the latest podcast 'Basic Brewing Radio', and they had a guy who sent in 6 different samples of a belgian homebrew, all the small batches were the same, except using a different sugar (table sugar, amber 'rocks', muscovado, soft candi, candi syrup, and homemade caramel). One of them was the new $8 bottle of candi syrup, and that beer seemed to be the best when taste tested by the 3 hosts of the podcast.

Good listening material.

Heres a picture of the different beers:
http://www.basicbrewing.com/radio/images/belgianexperiment-lg.jpg

Heres the link to the website to download the podcast:
http://www.basicbrewing.com/radio/

And finally, here is the direct link to the mp3 podcast itself:
http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr12-28-06.mp3

And, no I'm in no way related to that podcast, just pimping it because it is a great beer show.

Jerry

Nice pic

"I just listened to the latest podcast 'Basic Brewing Radio', and they had a guy who sent in 6 different samples of a belgian homebrew, all the small batches were the same, except using a different sugar (table sugar, amber 'rocks', muscovado, soft candi, candi syrup, and homemade caramel). One of them was the new $8 bottle of candi syrup, and that beer seemed to be the best when taste tested by the 3 hosts of the podcast."

Here is a link to the results synopsis:

http://babblebelt.com/newboard/thread.html?tid=1108752780&th=1167319672&pg=1&tpg=1&add=1

-Cheers

So I picked up a bottle of this syrup at the homebrew shop and plan on using it in a Belgian Dark Strong tomorrow. Are most of you using the whole bottle for a batch or only part of the bottle? I think the shop guy mentioned I only needed a few ounces for a 5 gallon batch, but I was just planning on taking out the 1 lb. of cane sugar in the recipe and substituting the full bottle of syrup. But since you all seem to have brewed with this stuff several times, I thought some advice might be useful. Thanks!

DT

Are you really gonna wanna save a partial bottle of that once its opened? Go for the whole thing Thats just my opinion though.

Sounds like another case of HBS-person-doesn't-know-what-they're-talking-about.
You'll need the whole bottle to get any depth with the flavors. I would almost suggest using two bottles, but I know that that can get a bit expensive.
The color is not what it claims, it'll be lighter than you might think, so be prepared for that.
Add it in the last 10 minutes of the boil for the best flavor addition.

The syrup is truly the missing link to get the true Belgian dubbel, etc. flavors.

Yo N8 -

Just (and I mean just) got done brewing your Westy clone. Somehow, (I am usually 68%) I hit 1.081. Used the 1762, had my first starter going - all went well!

It's sitting in my 62 degree garage right now.. I am thinking I'll leave it in there for a few days then bring it in the 72 degree house.... Any advice from here is appreciated...

Thanks for your help!!

--FB

Sounds like you've done everything you can.
Bringing it into the house in a day or two will do well. Just don't rush it. Let it tell you when it's done.

Thanks everyone. I just finished brewing the Belgian Dark Strong a couple of hours ago, used the whole bottle with 5 minutes left in the boil. One of my best all grain brewing sessions yet. Hit my 1.100 gravity right on the mark, got it in the fermenter and pitched my yeast starter that I stepped up twice and it's already got some bubbling going on. Looking forward to this one as it's my first go at a Belgian!

DT

YeeHaw!!

Hey N8 -

Maybe it was the St. Bernardus ABT12 last night while I was reading my newly acquired BLAM, but I thought I read the Westy8 from there utilized Westmalle (3787). Maybe I didn't get far enough into the book, but I was wondering where 1762 came from in the recipe? Trial and error?

Brought the Westy clone in the house after a day and a half - by far the most violent fermentation I have ever had (prolly thanx to the starter!).

I can't wait to try this one!

Thanks again!

--FB

Westy does use the Westmalle yeast. I used the Rochefort yeast by accident. Meant to grab the Westmalle but didn't. I forgot to post that, sorry. It does make a nice beer though.

At least it the type of oops that's gonna be tasty to imbibe!

It's not like you told me to open ferment or add milk or something..

N8 -

Just kegged after cold conditioning for a few weeks in the garage (which is in the 28 degree range), quick force carb, drew off a goblets worth and WOW!!!! I really mean WOW!

.5 glasses into it and now I am PUI. Came in around 9.1ABV. The aroma is exactly what you would expect, mouthfeel and taste are awesome, warming alcohol finish. Holy F.

Thanks for your help with this one!!

Onto Westcoastmalle next!

--FB

Frank: Awesome to hear about the beer. I must pick up this stuff now (Tim, lets go in on a 33lb jug dude heh...) I wanna do N8 recipe.

Jayson: Didn't notice this before but....

"N8, This sounds interesting. If I can't get dingemans here, will I be pretty close with briess?"

We get dingemans out at tB so if you want those grains stop out.