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Subject: Orval Clone?
Author: BryansBrew
Jun 15th, 2005
8:06 pm
before I go and see what I can come up with, has anyone seen a tried and true clone for Orval? I know I'm going to have to use more than yeast to reach their F.G.
Subject: Re: Orval Clone?
Author: Ziggy
Jun 15th, 2005
8:32 pm
Don't underestimate Danstar Nottingham!! Its been takin my beers down to 1.000 and less!
Subject: Re: Orval Clone?
Author: lambic
Jun 15th, 2005
9:48 pm
Try reculturing from the bottle. It has (besides normal sacharomyces) a nice Brettanomyces. I can look up our Cloning recipe for you. You'll never guess how much dry-hopping these Belgian monks use!
Subject: Re: Orval Clone?
Author: natesampson
Jun 15th, 2005
9:52 pm
I've got the Orval yeast in my yeast bank. A guy in our club cultured it out successfully.
I would love to see the recipe that you have Herman.
Subject: Re: Orval Clone?
Author: lambic
Jun 15th, 2005
10:20 pm
Here's a copy of my promash file, beware of the calculated efficiency! Calculated IBU should be between 36 and 39:

Orval Clone
A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------
Batch Size (L): 20.00 Wort Size (L): 20.00
Total Grain (kg): 5.19
Anticipated OG: 1.054 Plato: 13.25
Anticipated EBC: 29.5
Anticipated IBU: 39.0
Brewhouse Efficiency: 60 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------
Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 25.81 L
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.042 SG 10.37 Plato

Formulas Used
-------------
Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Daniels
Hop IBU Formula Used: Daniels


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
78.4 4.07 kg. Pilsener Germany 1.038 3
1.9 0.10 kg. CaraVienna France 1.035 50
10.0 0.52 kg. CaraMunich 60 France 1.034 150
9.6 0.50 kg. Candy Sugar 1.047 0

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.

Hops
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
11.25 g. Hallertau Hersbrucker Whole 3.20 4.8 76 min.
22.50 g. Styrian Goldings Whole 4.50 13.4 76 min.
10.00 g. Hallertau Hersbrucker Whole 3.20 3.5 45 min.
21.25 g. Styrian Goldings Whole 4.50 10.3 45 min.
63.75 g. Styrian Goldings Whole 4.50 7.0 Dry Hop


Yeast
-----

Orval recultured from bottle


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Multi Step

Grain kg: 4.69
Water Qts: 11.66 - Before Additional Infusions
Water L: 11.03 - Before Additional Infusions

L Water Per kg Grain: 2.35 - Before Additional Infusions

Acid Rest Temp : 0 Time: 0
Protein Rest Temp : 55 Time: 1
Intermediate Rest Temp : 0 Time: 0
Saccharification Rest Temp : 67 Time: 120
Mash-out Rest Temp : 0 Time: 0
Sparge Temp : 0 Time: 0


Total Mash Volume L: 14.17 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Celsius.


Subject: Re: Orval Clone?
Author: BryansBrew
Jun 15th, 2005
10:53 pm
Thanks double H.

My first and only attempt at culturing didn't go well at all. That's not to say I won't try it again, but I'd like to have a standby incase it didn't work. And I do want a little brett character in it. I was thinking white labs 510 and then hitting it with some WY3526 brett after fermentation kicks in. Does that sound about right? I'm definitely a newbie at using the funky critters.

of course, I'll use pellet hops like they do in orval
http://hopdogs.com/v-web/gallery/2005-Hop-Dog-European-Beer-Tour?page=8
Subject: Re: Orval Clone?
Author: lambic
Jun 16th, 2005
6:36 am
The whole leaves are in the recipe, because i prefer whole leafs. Check out the dryhops, they're definitely leaves: http://www.hobbybrouwen.nl/plaatjes/Orval/excursie_orval_2.htm
Subject: Re: Orval Clone?
Author: BryansBrew
Jun 16th, 2005
11:17 am
I was just teasin'. Being in between all of the hop growing regions of the world, we usually find pellet hops are more readily available and in better condition. If I lived in the PNW or Poperinge, it might be a different story.

it definitely looks like they dry hop with whole leaf. Probably makes it easier to remove and control.
http://hopdogs.com/v-web/gallery/2005-Hop-Dog-European-Beer-Tour/DSCF0037_0037_001
Subject: Re: Orval Clone?
Author: BryansBrew
Jul 18th, 2005
6:16 pm
HH, I was just reading an article (http://www.brewingtechniques.com/brewingtechniques/library/backissues/issue6.3/debenedetti.html) and came across this:

EEC regulations limiting nitrosamines from whole hops treated with fertilizer prompted the move to pellets. He was quick to point out that whole flower hops are still used for dry-hopping, where the nitrosamine hazard is less of an issue.

==

yeast and "other" critters are still up in the air. I'm not going to reculture, and I'm now not looking for an all-out clone, just something of a similar style which will actually be the second "party"-gyle of a much bigger belgian specialty I'm making

I was thinking WY3522 ardennes since i have some, and since WLP510 is seasonal & probably impossible to find right now. But then what for critters? a Brett strain, or a Lacto strain? A combination?
Subject: Re: Orval Clone?
Author: lambic
Jul 18th, 2005
9:15 pm
A Brett strain will come closest, i don't really like acid-hoppy beers. Hmm, that sounds like music
Subject: Re: Orval Clone?
Author: JohnV
Jul 19th, 2005
3:46 am
They have a clone recipe in the May-June BYO for Orval, in it it says they use the 3522 (or WLP 530) and then in 2ndary, 3526 (brett) or WLP650.
Subject: Re: Orval Clone?
Author: BryansBrew
Jul 19th, 2005
2:57 pm
Cool. I remember reading that article, but it's at home in the basement.

I never really noticed much of a brett character from orval. At least not at the levels of other brett beers I've had. Ah well, I'll give it a whirl.


Acid-hop? I haven't been to a rave in about 8 years.
Subject: Re: Orval Clone?
Author: mikefromcu
Jul 19th, 2005
4:46 pm
If you use the cultured Orval yeast in the primary, is there a need to add it again to the 2ndary? Seems like it should be able to handle it all the way down since the OG is just 54.
Subject: Re: Orval Clone?
Author: natesampson
Jul 19th, 2005
4:53 pm
A guy in our club cultured the yeast out of the Orval bottle and used it in primary. It tasted very Orval-ish to me, with the brett-iness and all that.
Subject: Re: Orval Clone?
Author: lambic
Jul 19th, 2005
6:54 pm
One yeast addition will suffice. It's a high attenuating yeast, mine fermented down to 1.006, from OG 1.054.

Not detecting Brettanomyces, probably means, it hasn't got the better of the ordinary strain yet. Young examples of Orval usually don't taste very Bretta, older examples do.
Subject: Re: Orval Clone?
Author: BryansBrew
Jul 19th, 2005
8:13 pm
hmm. I've had about 4 different examples in the recent months:
1 from belgium, and also the table version from belgium (only offered at the cafe by the monestary), 1 near Hartford, and a few in Philly. I didn't get much brett from any of them.

I guess since I'll bottle this batch, I might be able to restrain myself and save a few bottles for periodic testing.
Subject: Re: Orval Clone?
Author: MarkR
Jul 24th, 2005
7:59 pm
I've successfully cloned Orval, and while there are several key things one must do to get it right, the most important one is to use their house yeast in the primary and a certain brettanomyces strain in the secondary...and ONLY in the secondary. If you use brett. in the primary, you'll get too much brett. character. This is why really young and fresh Orval has very little brett. flavor and funk. In Orval, they use five different strains in the 'secondary', but using that brett. strain is by far the most important one and gets almost 100% of the character of the real thing. Bear in mind that brett. works slowly; my clone eventually got down to 1.000, right before I bottled it.

I did a ton of research before brewing it, and I'm quite confident that all of my info is accurate. Here's my recipe:

Orval Clone

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

19-E Belgian & French Ale, Belgian Specialty Ale

Min OG: 1.040 Max OG: 1.070
Min IBU: 20 Max IBU: 40
Min Clr: 3 Max Clr: 8 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.50 Wort Size (Gal): 5.50
Total Grain (Lbs): 10.13
Anticipated OG: 1.056 Plato: 13.83
Anticipated SRM: 5.7
Anticipated IBU: 45.8
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 7.10 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.043 SG 10.83 Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
79.0 8.00 lbs. Pilsen (2 Row) France 1.039 2
11.1 1.13 lbs. CaraVienne Malt Belgium 1.034 22
9.9 1.00 lbs. Turbinado Sugar Generic 1.046 0

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.75 oz. Hallertauer Tradition Pellet 4.30 34.9 75 min.
1.00 oz. Styrian Goldings Pellet 5.00 7.3 20 min.
1.00 oz. Styrian Goldings Pellet 5.00 3.6 5 min.
1.57 oz. Styrian Goldings Pellet 5.00 0.0 0 min.
2.00 oz. Styrian Goldings Pellet 5.00 0.0 Dry Hop


Yeast
-----

White Labs WLP510 Bastogne Belgian Ale




Notes
-----

Fermentation should be kept as close to 59F as possible.



Pitch a tube of White Labs WLP650 - Brettanomyces bruxellensis into the secondary. Allow
at least a month for the funk to work its magic before bottling.



Bottle with a small starter of the primary yeast strain.

Subject: Re: Orval Clone?
Author: BryansBrew
Jul 25th, 2005
12:50 pm
awesome! Thanks Mark. I'm going for a 'beer in the style of Orval'. It's going to be the second runnings from a much bigger and crazier belgian specialty beer.

I wanted 510, but it's impossible to find right now and I already had the ardennes. Thanks for the tips.

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