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Subject: hops for robust porter
Author: goschman
Nov 3rd, 2010
6:10 pm
I put off ordering hops for my brewing session on Friday and I really don't want to purchase them from my LHBS. I will probably still have to get bittering hops and I will probably go with with my usual Magnum, N Brewer, or Perle.

I believe I have an oz of Crystal and Willamette each. Due to my partial boil I will probably use both types. Any suggestions at what times during the boil I should add them. For a robust porter I am looking for more for bittering and balance right? I think these types are more for aroma so should I leave the Crystal and Willamette out completely?

I get way too caught up when I have too much time to plan my next batch. I will be brewing Friday so the madness will finally stop...for now.

No decision on the yeast yet except I will probably stick with Wyeast just for the hell of it. Right now, its between 1028/1098/1099/1275/1335 but I am leaning toward 1275. Don't have time to do a starter so I will probably add a couple extra tablespoons of WLP001 from a harvested slurry. Sorry if I am annoying but its pretty slow at work right now...
Subject: Re: hops for robust porter
Author: EricHa
Nov 3rd, 2010
7:56 pm
I'd put willamette in at 60m and then add the crystal somewhere around 20-0m depending on how many IBUs you want. But Magnum, Nbrewer and perle will all work just fine.
Subject: Re: hops for robust porter
Author: goschman
Nov 3rd, 2010
8:17 pm
I guess my problem is that since I am only doing a 3 gallon partial boil, the willamette will not give me enough IBUs. Looking to end up around 30. I think the willamette that I have are only 4.5%... I'll figure something out. The cheaper, the better.
Subject: Re: hops for robust porter
Author: Rex_Irae
Nov 3rd, 2010
11:17 pm
I'm thinking that if you put both of those in at 70 minutes, you'd still come out a bit short on your ibu's.

I would use the crystal for aroma and the willamette at 15, and any one of those others you named for bittering.
Subject: Re: hops for robust porter
Author: tonton
Nov 4th, 2010
12:53 am
Here is my favorite robust porter recipe:

Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 6.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.065 SG
Estimated Color: 32.2 SRM
Estimated IBU: 41.5 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
9.00 lb 2-Row Briess (1.8 SRM) Grain 70.87 %
1.50 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 11.81 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 7.87 %
1.00 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 7.87 %
0.20 lb Wheat Malt, Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 1.57 %
1.25 oz Northern Brewer [8.30 %] (60 min) Hops 33.5 IBU
1.25 oz Williamette [4.00 %] (15 min) Hops 8.0 IBU
1.00 oz Williamette [4.00 %] (0 min) Hops -
1 Pkgs SafAle American Ale (DCL Yeast #US-05) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 12.70 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
45 min Mash In Add 15.88 qt of water at 170.5 F 158.0 F



Subject: Re: hops for robust porter
Author: goschman
Nov 4th, 2010
1:52 am
Here is the one I will be brewing...

Type % or IBU
3.00 lb Pale Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 27.88 %
4.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 37.17 %
1.50 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 13.94 %
0.75 lb British Dark Crystal (80.0 SRM) Grain 6.97 %
0.75 lb Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 6.97 %
0.38 lb Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 3.53 %
0.25 lb Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 2.32 %
0.13 lb Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 1.21 %
1.00 oz Perle [8.20 %] (60 min) Hops 17.8 IBU
1.00 oz Northern Brewer [7.80 %] (20 min) Hops 10.2 IBU
1.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Thames Valley Ale (Wyeast Labs #1275) Yeast-Ale

First time using my mash tun. Kind of works out perfect since I am still doing partial boils....
Subject: Re: hops for robust porter
Author: tonton
Nov 4th, 2010
2:07 am
That's funny (not laughing at you), but if you add about another pound of flaked oats and cut the IBU's to about 20-25, you've got an oatmeal stout.

well, that and mash at 156 for 45 min.
Subject: Re: hops for robust porter
Author: goschman
Nov 4th, 2010
2:25 am
IMO...stouts should have a strong roasted character from the RB. For me the main difference between a stout and a porter is that a stout will usually have roasted barley while a porter will have black patent or some other dark malt. I like a bit of roasted flavor to my porter so I decided to add 2 oz of RB. The flaked oats is to give it a nice smoothness (at least that is the plan). I am mashing at 154 to give it a medium body. So basically I am going for a nice dark, smooth, medium bodied porter....

Overall I think you are right TT. if I removed the black patent and increased the RB and flake oats I would definitely have an oatmeal stout. So I guess this would fall into the Robust Porter/Oatmeal Stout category. We'll see how it comes out. This has developed from an extract porter recipe which has turned out great both times I brewed it. I think for my next attempt at a porter I will take out the RB and Flaked Oats and add some Carafa special or something....
Subject: Re: hops for robust porter
Author: Rex_Irae
Nov 4th, 2010
3:57 am
I think you would do well dropping the RB & upping the black.
I've tried porters with 1.4 lb, 1/2, 3/4, & 1lb in a 5-gal batch, and more than anything else, black malt makes the porter.
The other big difference from a stout is the hop level. Stouts have more bittering. Porters work better with more flavor hops, with the overall ibu's at a lower level.
As far as oats go, for mouthfeel purposes, oats are interchangeable with flaked barley. If you see flaked barley in a recipe, you can sub in 2/3 the weight in oats.
Oats do add a complexity in lighter beers that's different from what flaked barley with give you.

I would go with at least 1/2 lb of black malt.
Subject: Re: hops for robust porter
Author: SilentTitan
Nov 4th, 2010
2:00 pm
thats what i did in the stout i brewed last night...de-bittered black, red rye, and some oats. im not a bit RB kinda person, just taste like char to me.
Subject: Re: hops for robust porter
Author: Ohiobrewman
Nov 4th, 2010
4:00 pm
IMHO, 1275 isn't dry enough for that Porter.
Subject: Re: hops for robust porter
Author: goschman
Nov 4th, 2010
4:50 pm
Obviously, I am not very versed in the ways of which yeast I should use for a particular style. I don't understand how yeast characteristics will affect the overall perception of a beer. When a yeast is describes as tart or fruity that isn't what I usually think of when I am drinking a porter. I guess I was hoping that this porter wouldn't be dry which may go away from the style even more. What yeast would you recommend?

I was originally choosing between 1028/1275/1335. I have used 1028 for this porter in the past with what I thought was good results...should I stick with that?

I want something that will be neutral and malty with pretty good attenuation and flocculation...

Rex- Thanks for the advice however I think I will stick with the recipe for now. Your points are well taken and probably the way to go but I want to give this a shot.
Subject: Re: hops for robust porter
Author: BryansBrew
Nov 4th, 2010
5:56 pm
> I am not very versed in the ways of which yeast I should use for a particular style.

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_styleguidelines.cfm

There ya go
Subject: Re: hops for robust porter
Author: goschman
Nov 4th, 2010
5:59 pm
I have lived on that website for the past few days...that's how I decided on 1275. Man, I gotta stop second guess and just go with my plan...

This also makes me feel better about my ingredients including roasted barley:

May contain several malts, prominently dark roasted malts and grains, which often include black patent malt (chocolate malt and/or roasted barley may also be used in some versions). Hops are used for bittering, flavor and/or aroma, and are frequently UK or US varieties. Water with moderate to high carbonate hardness is typical. Ale yeast can either be clean US versions or characterful English varieties.
Subject: Re: hops for robust porter
Author: Ohiobrewman
Nov 4th, 2010
6:54 pm
I say stick with the 1028 or 1099.
Subject: Re: hops for robust porter
Author: SilentTitan
Nov 4th, 2010
7:05 pm
or you can just go for nottingham if you need a low gravity finish... a very neutral yeast that works well even at lower temperatures, which works well for me being in colorado and my fermenting room is hovering around or just below 60 deg in the winter
Subject: Re: hops for robust porter
Author: goschman
Nov 4th, 2010
7:09 pm
I live in CO as well but I have built an insulated fermentation chamber for the winter. It works great though it is probably a bit of a fire hazard... Can I collect insurance if the fire was traced to a small space heater in a wooden box? I guess that really isnt' very funny
Subject: Re: hops for robust porter
Author: Dunkelbier
Nov 5th, 2010
1:56 pm
goschman - sure you can claim to the insurance that you're participating in a highly secret, government yeast protection program. Therefore you were doing a 'public good'...
Subject: Re: hops for robust porter
Author: Rex_Irae
Nov 5th, 2010
2:12 pm
Between the 1028 & 1099, I think the 1028 is the better choice. It's a cleaner yeast.
If you've had Whitbread Pale Ale before, that's the yeast, and that's the flavor.
But then 1099 in the primary & 1028 in the secondary would give you better attenuation with the same flavor at a more subdued level.
I've tried the 1028 & the 1335 side-by-side before, and I really can't remember which one I liked better, but I think it was the 1028.
I made notes about it, but at the time, I was making notes on Post-It notes, and they don't archive well like that.
Subject: Re: hops for robust porter
Author: Ohiobrewman
Nov 5th, 2010
4:24 pm
It's the 1098 and 1099 that are the Whitebread Strains.
Subject: Re: hops for robust porter
Author: goschman
Nov 5th, 2010
8:05 pm
Just finished brewing for the first time using my mash tun. I used 3# LME and 7.75# grain. Pretty disappointed as my efficiency was a whopping 59%. Damn that pisses me off...
Subject: Re: hops for robust porter
Author: Rex_Irae
Nov 6th, 2010
1:05 am
The one thing that I found that helped my efficiency the most was paying close attention to the pH.
I check it, then again 10 minutes later, then again 10 minutes later to verify the same result.
I tend to brew a lot of dark beers though, and that might well affect the drift.

And then again, I did a lot of other crap intended to increase efficiency.

But once I stopped paying so close attention to efficiency is when it really jumped.
Not sure why that happened.

But close monitoring of the pH is a good place to start, and especially with darker beers.
Subject: Re: hops for robust porter
Author: goschman
Nov 6th, 2010
7:07 pm
I didn't hit my temps. Could that have something to do with it? Was supposed to mash at 154 but only got to 150. Sparge was only 164. Beersmith estimated my strike and sparge water temp for my equipment. Obviously, it was about 4 degrees off...
Subject: Re: hops for robust porter
Author: Rex_Irae
Nov 6th, 2010
10:08 pm
I'm sure it was the sparge temp that was the culprit.
That's one of the things that I learned from hanging around this site, is that you're better off with the temps a bit high on the sparge than a bit low.
A lot of guys sparge at 180. I tried it, and it did increase my efficiency, so I do it all the time now.
Last rest on my standard step-mash is 162. There's an enzyme there in the low 160's that binds medium-chain proteins. Helps retain foam.
Your sparge was only a couple of degrees higher than my last rest.
It should hold a head fairly good though.
Subject: Re: hops for robust porter
Author: goschman
Nov 6th, 2010
10:21 pm
Thanks Rex. At this point, I still have so much to learn about AG and the process. I did figure out why I missed my temps though. The default settings for my mash tun profile has the weight at 4 lbs. When I increase to its actual weight (closer to 10) it increases both the strike and sparge water temps by about 4 degrees. If I would have accounted for this, I probably would have been much closer.

The good news is my fermentation took off in under 8 hours. I ended up choosing 1275 Thames Valley. I didn't have time to do a starter so I also added a couple of tablespoons of some WLP001 from the fridge. Not sure if it was the combination of these two yeasts or what but I have never had such a rigorous fermentation at this point. Had to move it back out to the garage because the temp shot up to 76.

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