New homebrewer starting off with all-grain.

I'm trying to brew some very dry, highly-attenuated Belgians, and want to make as fermentable a mash as reasonably possible. I'll be using step infusion, and I was thinking something like:

145 F for 90 minutes at 1.25 qts/lb
150 F for 30 minutes (boiling water addition increases to 1.42 qts/lb)
155 F for 30 minutes (boiling water addition increases to 1.60 qts/lb)
161 F for 30 minutes (boiling water addition increases to 1.85 qts/lb)

The first stage is to really let the limit dextrinase and beta amylase do their thing.
Next step will kill dextrinase, but should preserve beta and have more beta-alpha cooperation
Next step will start to kill beta, but should get some final activity while favoring alpha.
Last step will be all alpha to get those final bits out.

I'll then, hopefully, have the grain bed still at 160 F and runoff. Then measure how much more wort I need, add in that much sparge water (175-180F), mix it up, let it really soak and absorb sugar, and finally run off again and boil.

Thoughts/criticisms? I realize this may be excessive for today's "hot" malts, but I'm really trying to hit a Duvel level of dryness. This will be yeasted with WLP550 (78-85% attenuation).

162F binds medium-chain proteins to help with head retention.

My standard step mash is:
122 - 20 mins
144 - 30
152 - 40
162 - 10

Too many notes in too many notebooks, or I could tell you more.

I admire the beer geekiness, especially for a newbie. But damn!

For that style, wouldn't the dryness come from the upwards of 20% sugar in the boil? I don't think you'll have a problem with attenuation with that. Plus a nice healthy starter (yes, I'm actually recommending a starter here- it's appropriate IMHO). And a well controlled fermentation temp.

I kinda like Rex's 144-152 marks. Anything else isn't really needed. You can always sparge with hot water to reach a 168ish mark.

Thanks, Rex. Any information you have is appreciated; I love the science of enzymes and protein/starch reactions.

That looks quite a lot like Ommegang's step mash, and I considered doing something like that. However, in order to step up the temperature that much with water additions, I'd really be drowning my mash by the end, and wouldn't have much room for the next sparge. Are you using direct heat to step up temperature rather than hot water?



Bryan, I'm indeed planning on using around 20% sugar, as is typical in the Belgian line-up. If that's really all that's needed to get that level of dryness, then excellent.

I like Rex's step temp schedule, It's very close to mine.

If you're experimenting with your setup, I'd suggest using Euro pale malts over Euro pils malts for starters--it's just easier to work with and really doesn't need the low temp steps (in case you throw in the water for the first step and find that you're started at too high a temperature). If you use 80% Dingamann's Pale and 20% BestMaltz Caramel Malt Pils (2-3 L), you're going to have a tasty yellow beer without all the cloudiness and corn-ness of pils malt.

A lot of Duvel's flavor comes from the sugar they're using.

WLP 550 is good. My fav for something like this is Wyeast Ardennes (a lot of people's favorites too).

Best wishes on with your new set-up. All grain is fun. You can make any beer you can imagine.

I've been getting some pretty high attenuation by just mashing at 145-146 for 3-4 hours, without using any sugar:

Two Kolches with Australian ale yeast, 1.045 OG, 1.006 FG
Saison with French Saison yeast, 1.055 OG, 1.003 FG (if it's really done)
IPA with American ale yeast, 1.069, 1.012 - I mashed this one at 152. I'm afraid to think what would've happened if I mashed it at 145...it's already 7.5% ABV.

Seems like a single step mash at 145 and the right quantity of the right yeast can get you just about as low as you want. I'm not sure that higher temps will increase fermentability at all.

TomC, there's a difference between mashing pils and pale? Please explain; you've got my full attention.

Yes, Something I'm run into with Dingeman malts (I make Belgian styles pretty exclusively and this is what they have at the LHBS), The pils throws a lot of chill haze and needs low temperature mash steps. Pale malt is well-modified and very tolerant of a quick mash.

Thanks, TomC, that makes A LOT of things I've seen make more sense.

Yes, I do use direct heat.

Here's the reference stuff I jotted down.

Proteolytic (4.2 - 5.3 pH):
113 - 122
122 - 140

Diastatic (5.2 - 5.8 pH):
149 - 153
126 - 144

Those are the ranges of the different enzymes.
Below that is an acid rest (not needed with a bit of phosphoric acid), and above that is the medium-chain protein binding (162F).
Proteolytic rests benefit from a thicker mash than the diastatic rests.

I use (what seems to me like) an awful lot of gypsum, and somewhat less calcium chloride.
Standard rule of thumb is that gypsum accentuates the hops, and calcium chloride accentuates the malts.
Or that's my take on it. You can go around with that all day.

I had some notes from BLAM on the mashes for the various Trappist brews.
Some of this sounds out to me. You might want to verify.

ACHEL:
118 - 15 mins
144 - 20
160 - 60
174 - mash out

ORVAL:
145 - varies
162 - mash out

ROCHEFORT:
135
145
165
172 - mash out

That long rest for Achel seems a bit high to me. Might have written it down wrong.

I designed my step mash for a highly fermentable wort.
From looking at this again though, it seems like you could get pretty much the same effect by mashing at 138 - 142 for 90+ minutes.

And pay attention to the pH. It makes a lot of difference.

I'm particularly shocked by the medium-chain binding at 162F. I've seen some stuff about acid, glucan, and protein rests before, but I've never even heard of that. I have been worried about head retention, so that is really good to know.

I can only say I've seen Orval's mashing laid out before. Indeed, it's 145 for "varies" and 162 for 20 minutes, and, certainly, Orval produces a very dry beer.

As PaulD70 was saying, maybe a really long rest at 145 is really all that's needed. That's in the optimal limit-dextrinase and b-amylase range, and you just court the a-amylase with patience. I could add an intermediate step to 152 just to be absolutely sure, but I'm really encouraged by his and Orval's results.

Unless I want to cough up the money for a direct heat setup, that might have to do. I might also want to use pale instead of pils.

When doing direct heat, what mash thickness do you use?

I looked up Orval's site to see what information I could pick out. Indeed, they use pale malt instead of pils (as well as "a small proportion of caramel malt" ). That would explain having none of the lower-temp rests.

I use 1 1/4 for the proteolytic rest and 1 1/2 for the diastatic rests.
Should have said I use direct heat except when I'm adjusting the mash thickness.

I got that info on 162F from Fix's Principles book.
There's also a table in there that gives condensed info on various enzymes, but the temp units are in C. (p. 47)

It seems like it's done me some good since I've added the 162F rest.

I think its cool with the step mash but I wonder if you're get anymore out of your mash than I'm with a single infusion.

Yea I agree, I don't see the need to do a step mash, with the malting they do today, its easy to get full conversion in up to 90m...
Thats the other thing I don't get, why is anyone doing a mash over 90m?! I highly doubt you're getting any benefit out of it...

Funny you two should say that. I also get great efficiency with a single infusion (60-75 min @ 154-156*) and fly sparge @ 168*. I have been doing a bit of reading on step, but it seems to me that it's real advantage is the extraction percentage. I don't want to seem lazy, but I can add a half or so extra pounds of grain to my mash and reach the OG I want, or am I missing the point?

Tonton, you might be missing a bit of the point. Efficiency is how much sugar you can get out per pound of grain, but fermentability is how much of that sugar the yeast will eat. English beers will use a higher rest like 154-156, but this will leave behind dextrins, which the yeast won't eat. What you end up with is a thicker, sweeter beer, which might be to your tastes. However, a long rest in the lower 140s will give more edible sugars to the yeast, making the beer thinner and more alcoholic, like a champagne.

EricHa and AZbrewman, 145 for 90 minutes is probably plenty.

I also appreciate the beer geekiness here ryan. haha. I would love to see you do this complex mash schedule and then also try a single infusion to the same recipe and conditions for another beer. I would also highly recommend using a large percentage (20% or slightly more) of simple sugars, as this is customary for a duvel-type strong golden or similar styles. Orval is very dry too, and I'm not sure if they use simple sugars or not. I know they are the only trappist brewer to dry hop, for what its worth.

As for mash thickness with my single infusions, I always do 1.25-about 1.33 ratio. This has been working well for me.

I just made a batch that fits your description. Only difference is my mash was a single infusion for about 100 minutes at 150. It did include half a pound of clear belgian candy sugar. Went from 1.064 to 1.008, and is almost puckeringly (is that a word?) dry as it went into secondary. I used S-58 yeast, which was a third generation yeast cake, aerated with O2.
I'm not sure if it was the mountain of yeast and the O2, or the sugar or what, but that puppy is really dry.

As to the yeast, WLP570 and WY1388 are supposedly from Duvel if you're trying to clone it or make something similar.

Nothing wrong with 550 (or it's 1388 ardennes cousin), though.

I believe that between a low mash (148), 20% sugar, and one of the yeast above with a starter and fairly high fermentation temp (perhaps increasing the temp at the end of fermentation), you'll easily hit the attenuation mark without the need for any fancy mashing.

This is a great thread. Lots of useful information. Got me thinking about what I'm doing in the brewhouse.

If I can share some observations with you regarding brewing Belgian styles (please debate these, I'm here to learn too):

Doing all-grain brewing, you're much more likely to have an overly dry beer than an overly sweet beer (this is a good problem, you can always make beers sweeter by cutting back on the sugar addition or increasing your percentage of specialty malts and decreasing your percentage of base malts.)

I've never used any of the Belgian Candi brand products--have been using Dansukker beet sugar syrup (get it at Ikea) for 3-4 years. It will give you an authentic flavor, especially the dark syrup. Cheaper than the LHBS stuff too.

BestMaltz Caramel Malt Pils (2-3 L) is a very useful specialty malt for making clear light color beers with pale malt, avoiding chill haze and getting a nice rocky white head. There aren't a lot of clear yellow beers out there (I've heard that the problem is nitrogen-based fertilizers). Good appearance is important if you're entering competitions.

I never use brewing salts (I can always taste them). I do use Poland Spring, Pocono Spring water (or water I get from a well in Upstate NY. The mash has to acidify as it progresses, and mash water with carbonate in it resists acidification.

So, to clarify, I'm not actually going after Duvel. I'm just using that as an example because it's well known and its attenuation is very apparent in its taste. My favorites are actually Dark Strong, Tripel, and Saison.

TomC nailed it on the head: it's easier to cut back on dryness than it is to get more.

Good tip on the Dansukker! I've been making dark and amber rock sugar by inverting, cooking slowly to color, and then placing on a large sheet to cool and break apart later. I don't know how well it'll work, but it does take on those raisin flavors. I could try putting in cotton strings with seed crystals to crystallize out excess sugar and get a full-fledged dark syrup.

If I end up with too much dryness, I'll start adding in Caramel malts to bring it down.

Heres couple for ya, they were single infusion

wy1388, 21%sugar, 147-149f mash, and 94% attenuation.
wy3864, 6% sugar, 145f mash (started high but lowered the temp), and 88% attenuation.

LOL. I put in "ikea Dansukker" into google and the first hit is tastybrew.

Hmm. it's not on the Ikea site. I guess I'll have to check it out in person sometime. Do you know the quantity and price it goes for?

Does anyone think a mash thickness of 1qt/lb will interfere with complete conversion with a long rest at 145?

I have done ratios as low as .9qt/lb and had it give me 80%+

I use a thin mash now because its easier to stir and get it mix in well. I have done thick and thin mashes but now I shoot for 1.5qt/lb. I see no difference with mash thickness except mixing problems.

I use 28 quarts of water no matter what my grain bill is.

Ryan, you may have better results gaining raisin flavors by adding some Special B Malt.

Brian, Dansukker was going for around $4 a bottle last time I was at Ikea, (I don't go frequently, so I stock up).

I make an 8 gallon batch (fills two carboys with some headspace), Starting with 13.5 lbs of malt, 13.5 total gallons of water yields about 11 gallons of wort. Boil for two hours and there's 9 gallons of concentrated wort at around 1.054 OG before the sugar addition. (I'd sparge less water if I want higher OG)

For a dry dubbel at 1.068 I add an entire bottle of dansukker, For some residual sweetness and lower OG at around 1.062, add only a half bottle.

I'm routinely getting FG's of 1.004 to 1.008 (this can depend on the yeast). I made a few batches with Wyeast Belgian Canadian yeast this summer, which is not as attenuative as Ardennes, a bigger producer of esters at 62 F fermentation, and a much slower flocculator. It has a bad quirk where there is kind of a layer of acetaldehyde surrounding the yeast cake--if you're serving from a keg. You need to throw away your first glass of beer if the keg has been sitting to avoid the apple flavors and associated hammer bang to the brain.

OTOH: Ardennes is a fast flocker, fairly attenuative, tends to throw phenolic flavors at 62 F, and probably the cleanest fermenter of Belgian strains.

I've been on the fence about Special B. It sounds like the Belgians don't use it, and I've heard it has a slight burnt taste. I have an Ikea around, so I'll look for Dansukker.

So, I was looking at thorough step mashes for undermodified Pilsner malt, like Rex's schedule or what Ommegang does. Reading more about infusion mashes, I saw mention of people starting as low as 0.75qt/lb when they're going to step by boiling water. Something like this could be done:

113F, Glucan/protein rest, 0.75 qt/lb
145F, Starch, 1.23 qt/lb
152F, More Starch, 1.46 qt/lb
162F, Head Retention, 1.84 qt/lb

Assuming 0.5 qt/lb grain absorption + space at the bottom of my cooler, I should have leftover room for a decent sparge.

I may not WANT to do this, but it is theoretically possible.

Ryan, if you land a little high on the first step, say 122, you'll be fine. Getting some mash time in over 148-149 is important to put some longer chain sugars into the kettle. Even if you have to throw in extra boiling water to get it up there.

You sound like a real research guy--most Belgian beers (the commercial ones anyway) are full of mistakes and compromises--the flaws are what gives the beer character. I kind of wish that BLAM would to a new edition as a lot more is known about Belgian brewing today, compared to when the book was written.

The malt bills tend to be simple, but figuring out which brand and type of malt can be an endless quest. I've heard that Malteries Franco-Belge Special Aromatic Malt is the wonderbra of the the Flemish brewhouse. It's tough to get in the US. Never used it.

Most small Belgian brewers prefer flat-bottomed or slightly dish-shaped fermenters--when Duvel took over Ommegang, they installed one that looks like a big fishtank. These aren't so great in a production brewery, so you don't see them too much in big breweries, so an average homebrewer using a carboy fermenter actually has the upper hand with this style.

Sugar selection is very important--the small amount of crud that's left over after dextrose all gets eaten by yeast contributes flavors. Using nice bottled water helps a lot too--never mind if you have a well that's low in carbonate , or live in an area where you get snow-melt water through your tap (Denver, Colorado or Northern CA).

I think MFB is Castle Malts in the US.

We get MFB all the time through NCM. I'm not a fan of their darker malts. Too much burnt, not enough roast.

I really do love the research! There are compromises in every commercial product. I'm an engineer by day, and much of the job is just figuring how much compromise you can get away with before the product starts suffering, but how much is necessary to keep prices reasonable.

Anyways, it sounds like I'm pretty lucky; LHBS carries both the Malteries Franco-Belge and Castle lineups. Rumor is that Castle does their own pale and pils, but the specialty malts are Dingemans with a Castle label slapped on them.

I've actually become rather relaxed from this discussion. My real concerns are now sparge efficiency and fermentation temp. I think I'll use the more modified pale malt and start at 145 at 1 qt/lb, maybe take a stop at 152, and finish at 162 at about 1.5qt/lb. This should give more than adequate conversion, and it'll give me plenty of room left over for one big sparge or two smaller sparges, which should take care of my efficiency concerns.

Ryan, RE yeast selection: where are you fermenting? what's the temperature there?

I'm near Portland, Oregon. It's usually a good 68-75 in the house.

I'm, of course, open to suggestions, but I'm really enthusiastic about WLP550. It's reputed to flocculate well, it has great attenuation, it's available year round, and it gives off a lot of Belgian spice, which I love.

Make sure you pay as much attention to your fermentation temps as you do your mash schedule.

Oh, and while we're talking about yeast, does anyone here have experience maintaining a brewer's yeast culture? If possible, I want to get a single "all-purpose" Belgian strain and keep it going so I don't have to keep paying for yeast samples, or am I inviting more trouble than it's worth?

High 60s is going to give you a lot of esters (bubblegum, bananas) with most Belgian strains. Do you have a basement? Ideally if you like phenols, try to find spot where its a constant temp between 62 and 65 degrees.

I know BLAM says high temperatures, but everyone they interviewed is a pro with a fermenter with a water jacket on it and a chiller attached, and they can get the temperature to drop when they need to.

I ferment in the basement where it's a constant 62-63 F all year round. I think you'll find a lot of people here are working in this temperature range.

One of the interesting properties of yeast is that they throw phenols when they ferment cold, and they throw esters when they're fermenting hot. Each strain has a different crossover point. For instance at 63 F Ardennes is cold and throws phenols, but Belgian Canadian feels hot hand throw esters.

Ugh, I've been reading the stuff on temperature control, and that stuff's just scary. I don't have a basement. I can figure something out though. If low 60s are what I want, then I'll just have to find a way.

So, when a yeast company quotes optimum fermentation temperature, they're talking about the center of the carboy and not the air around?

mid to upper 60's ambient will give you a fairly good level.
I don't remember a fermentation that had a +10F temp differential, but about +5F is common for about the first 5 days or so.
I'm sure the shape of the vessel can affect that somehow.

I keep several yeasts on hand.
I started collecting them in 1-qt mason jars, but that took up too much room.
These days, I keep them in empty plastic water bottles, 12 oz., and stuffed in the Boulevard 6-pk boxes.
I have 3 boxes stuffed full of related yeasts, 3 1-qt jars full of stuff (the wlp009 Aussie & wlp029 Kolsch are very versatile), and a box with a few vials I've yet to build up.
I need to thin out a bit of what I've got.

It comes out about the same expense as using dry yeast, but the variety is so many more times greater.

There's a recipe for a 3-gal batch that I posted.
You build up the yeast enough for about 4 batches at that volume.

Thanks Rex for backing me up. When you say something that seems to contradict a popular book, you're going to hear from some people.

It's really not a contradiction: a pro brewer has a CCF with an internal temp of 73F--but the water jacket is keeping it from going higher; a homebrewer has a carboy in the basement with an internal temp of 73F--and her cold basement is keeping it from going higher. Beer warms up as it ferments.

Might be good to survey a bunch of successful Belgian ale homebrewers to see what their fermentation room temp is, and what yeasts they're using. The ones I talked to: low 60s.

What size batch are you doing? For an all grain setup: an 10 gallon batch is popular. I do an 8 gallon batch and think it's perfect. I get two carboys of work at the end of the brewday with some headspace on top so it doesn't usually overflow. (Also--I keg, I don't bottle.)

You might be able to find a spare fridge or freezer that holds two carboys that you can use.

Also, if you're a homebuilder-- you could build a chiller-based unit. I've been thinking of doing this.

I'll find a way to get it down to the low 60s. The Belgian advice of allowing the temperature to go wild seems... strange, given what we generally know about yeast. Maybe they're right, and for a first try, I could certainly accept an estery beer. Winter's coming though, and it's easy enough to just set the house thermostat to, say, 62 for a few weeks.

I drank Duvel once out of a bottle, and it tasted metallic, but I just shared one with my roommate out of some good glasses. Maybe I SHOULD be trying to duplicate them

Anyways, I'm planning on starting out with 5 gallon batches. Not too much to drink up if I get a flawed beer, but enough to justify the work.

Also, I found out about steam injecting a mash to step temperatures. The setup is surprisingly cheap to build, so I might go with that.

"Winter's coming though, and it's easy enough to just set the house thermostat to, say, 62 for a few weeks."

Either you aren't married or you have a very understanding wife.

My understanding of the Belgian treatment of the yeast was to keep it below 70F until the fermentation was halfway complete.
I go a bit lower, and until 2/3 complete.
A bit of extra heat at the end, +8F or so, for a dry finish.
Around 67 ambient works for me.
The first three days are all you really have to worry about it getting hot.
At the end it speeds metabolism.
The stage where the yeast produces lots of esters is done.
It's cleaning up by then.