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Subject: Cider Question
Author: smkrfr
Sep 18th, 2009
1:58 pm
I'm going to make a cider today. Was wondering if I should pasteurize it first. I'm getting it pressed this morning and was going to rack it this evening. Is it necessary to heat it up? I know you are not supposed to boil it.
Subject: Re: Cider Question
Author: CNYBrewing
Sep 18th, 2009
2:06 pm
if its that fresh and you get yeast into it right away then the yeast will out produce any wild yeast. You don't want to boil or heat the cider because it will give a cooked apple flavor to the cider.

Most places I've been at in NY have to at least UV Pasteurize it before it can leave the farm.
Subject: Re: Cider Question
Author: bryguy
Sep 18th, 2009
2:26 pm
You can heat pasteurize, but as Paul notes you will be affecting the aroma and flavor. In the future, if you can get them to UV pasteurize then take that option; unless you want to take a gamble on a natural ferment there's no reason not to UV pasteurize. All that being said, I agree wih Paul, pitch the yeast quickly and hope that they do their thing.
Subject: Re: Cider Question
Author: DavidS
Sep 18th, 2009
2:29 pm
Don't some people let it naturally ferment?
Subject: Re: Cider Question
Author: brewsci
Sep 18th, 2009
2:34 pm
CAn't you use metabisulphite like you do for wine?
Subject: Re: Cider Question
Author: bryguy
Sep 18th, 2009
2:51 pm
Yes, fresh cider will have a plethora of bacteria and wild yeast that will certainly ferment it. People generally report a 50/50 split between the best batch they've ever made and something that is simply undrinkable. Mine was the latter, green and blue mold.

Yes people do use metabisulphite (Camden tablets) but they only inhibit, they do not kill. So I've never really seen the point, they'll inhibit your added yeast just as they inhibit the wild ones.
Subject: Re: Cider Question
Author: DavidS
Sep 18th, 2009
2:54 pm
I like that word "plethora".
Subject: Re: Cider Question
Author: Suncrow
Sep 18th, 2009
3:02 pm
EL Guapo: Would you say I have a plethora of pinatas?
Subject: Re: Cider Question
Author: DavidS
Sep 18th, 2009
3:06 pm
What's bad is that I knew what movie that came from without looking it up. ROTFLMAO
Subject: Re: Cider Question
Author: Suncrow
Sep 18th, 2009
3:11 pm
Lots of quotable lines from that one BB.
Subject: Re: Cider Question
Author: lawdawg
Sep 18th, 2009
3:12 pm
HAHAHAHHAHA

Anyways, any DFW guys know a place I can get good cider nearby? I like the pitch and forget it idea. Wouldn't mind filling a carboy and trying it out.
Subject: Re: Cider Question
Author: DavidS
Sep 18th, 2009
3:32 pm
El Guapo: Well, you told me I have a plethora. And I just would like to know if you know what a plethora is. I would not like to think that a person would tell someone he has a plethora, and then find out that that person has *no idea* what it means to have a plethora.

Sorry, I'll stop now.
Subject: Re: Cider Question
Author: smkrfr
Sep 18th, 2009
3:47 pm
I already told them to press it and do noting else, so I am stuck with un-pasteurized product. I'll pitch it right away. I feel pretty confident with that after researching it a bit. Not a big monitory investment anyways. Thanks!
Subject: Re: Cider Question
Author: smkrfr
Sep 18th, 2009
3:48 pm
"We raped the horses, and rode off on the women!"
Subject: Re: Cider Question
Author: danno
Sep 18th, 2009
3:54 pm
I have only used Campden tablets once and never have used pastuerized juice (I press my own). We hose the apples off and that's about it. I do pitch a packet of yeast in every five gallons (Pastuer Red seems to be my favorite). I also generally add 2# of honey to every five gallons. It dries out the cider and adds complexity. These ciders come out very dry (0.993) and slightly to moderately tart. I prefer sparking cider so all my ciders are carbonated to 45 psi and the cider drinks like a fine Champagne. YMMV.

Traditional cider is made utilizing the wild yeast with slow, low temperature ferments (50 to 60°F) using ale yeasts. I'm going to try that this year. I do about 45 gallons of cider annually.

Another good yeast is the EC1118.

Subject: Re: Cider Question
Author: brewsci
Sep 18th, 2009
4:24 pm
"
Yes people do use metabisulphite (Camden tablets) but they only inhibit, they do not kill. So I've never really seen the point, they'll inhibit your added yeast just as they inhibit the wild ones."


That is not my understanding of how you use metabisulphite. You add it wait 12 hours and add your yeast which I have been told is much less sensitive than wild yeast.

Nothing here is sterile so it is all about giving your yeast a good head start. Same with beer.
Subject: Re: Cider Question
Author: brandonfitz69
Sep 18th, 2009
6:26 pm
There is a small article in this months issue of BYO. They talk to 3 cider makers - woodchuck and others.

There is a preface written by a BYO person and in that article they say if you want consistency to heat the cider to 160 for 15 min. UV pastorization just kills pathogens like E.Coli it doesn't kill natural yeast and this will cause variations amongst batches depending on the source.

I just did this on my current batch of hard cider so I will let you know how it turns out (5%ABV) .
I believe all 3 people interviewed also suggest using champagne yeast.
Subject: Re: Cider Question
Author: BryansBrew
Sep 18th, 2009
6:34 pm
I'll agree with Brandon.

I bought 5 gallons of UV "pasteurized" cider last fall. I wasn't ready to use it, so I put it in my chest freezer at around 35'F

To my surprise, two of the jugs started bulging from fermentation. Even if there was decent yeast in there, I'd have figured that 35F would have kept them in check.

Of course, I cracked one of the jugs, tasted it and declared it the best tasting cider I've ever had. Perhaps diacetyl, but it was caramelly and delicious. So I dumped them all in the fermenter and tossed in some D47.

I haven't kegged it yet, though. I hope it's decent.
Subject: Re: Cider Question
Author: Malone
Sep 18th, 2009
7:30 pm
If you ever notice an orchard selling some cider in plastic, some in glass, they likely use different types of pasteurization. The less-pasteurized cider would be sold in plastic so that bottle bombs don't occur from fermentation.
Subject: Re: Cider Question
Author: smkrfr
Sep 18th, 2009
7:59 pm
Well, we'll see what happens. Just racked 4 gal of un-pasteurized cider with enough honey to bring the OG to 1.063. Pitched WLP004. The local homebrew store was out of Champ & Cider Yeasts. 004 Should do the trick, I'm a fan. On to a batch of Porter tonight, busy day.
Subject: Re: Cider Question
Author: Goldfngr77
Oct 19th, 2009
3:40 pm
I always use the campden tablets. You just have to let it sit for 24 hours and then stir vigoursly to drive off all the sulfur before adding your yeast. I also add whole cinnamon sticks and cloves adds a nice flavor.
Subject: Re: Cider Question
Author: Dogscape
Oct 20th, 2009
12:11 pm
To my knowledge, heating to 160 does not affect the flavor at all.
160 is barely hotter than tap water, and it kills all the wilds. I set for 15 at 160.

It is the safe (smart) way to start your fermentation. IMHO.

By the way, my orchard will fresh-press for me, right into my 7 gal buckets.

I'm getting a starting gravity of 1067 with no additions.

SS
Subject: Re: Cider Question
Author: danno
Oct 20th, 2009
3:45 pm
>To my knowledge, heating to 160 does not affect the flavor at all.

To each their own. I would never heat a cider or mead to 160 because of concern of loss of aromatics. These are very lightly flavored drinks since most of the flavor prior to fermentation comes from the sugar enhancement of the natural flavors. Once the sugar is fermented out, they have very delicate aroma. You don't want to chance losing any of that. I don't know of any cider house that preheats their cider to 160 except to pastuerize and that's usually only for a few minutes.

A friend that is big into meads suggests that one takes a small sample of the must and heat it to pastuerization temp and then cool it and compare the aroma and flavor to a sample of the original must to experiemce the loss of aromatics first hand.

What kind of apples give you 1.067 OG (without adjuncts)? My ciders have too high of percentage of sweet apples due to lack of being able to source proper cider apples and I rarely hit 1.055. Remember that the sweeter the apples, the lower the aromatics and flavor.



Subject: Re: Cider Question
Author: Dogscape
Oct 20th, 2009
7:53 pm
I can't tell you, as my cidery keeps his exact blend a secret. Wish I knew what his blend was, as it is fantastic, and I'd like to be able to duplicate.
Yes, it is 1067 without adjuncts.
Hope I'm not removing the aromatics on it, it seems good. I'm doing another 14 gallons this weekend and you've got me wondering if I might split the batch both ways...
Subject: Re: Cider Question
Author: New_To_The_Brew
Oct 20th, 2009
8:19 pm
wow you guys are getting low low Og's on your ciders. I just did another batch that hit 1.090 OG and I always use whitelabs sweet mead/ wine yeast. This yeast ferments the best and instead of a bitter cider you get a wonderful sweetness to it. My cider was a hit at my last homebrew club meeting and had a judge tell me it was the best cider he had ever tasted.
Subject: Re: Cider Question
Author: mroakley
Oct 20th, 2009
8:41 pm
The highest OG on any cider I've made was 1.072. That included 2# turbinado and 1# honey. FG was .994 and I used sweet mead yeast. I made it late last year and kegged it last week. Tastes excellent. One of the best I've ever made.
Subject: Re: Cider Question
Author: danno
Oct 20th, 2009
10:47 pm
>I'm doing another 14 gallons this weekend and you've got me wondering if I might split the batch both ways...

I have never heated any of mine but I have compared pitching with yeast right away to using a Campden tablet and waiting a few days before pitching and I didn't note any differences. I'll add that I don't spend a lot of time cleaning the apples or separating out the soft spots (we do catch the ugly ones) so I would expect the Campden tablet to really knock down some of the wild stuff.

1.090 OG without sugars? I have to ask around on that. I'm nowhere close to that. That's wine grape territory.
Subject: Re: Cider Question
Author: Professor
Nov 23rd, 2009
4:14 am
I'm living in Tajikistan in Central Asia (domestic apples are now known to be derived from the wild species Malus sieversii, which is native to Central Asia). I had my cook purchase and press fresh apples. I asked her to get enough for 5 gallons approximately and to get a variety of Red/Green/green and red (don't know the varieties yet).

Without adding any sugars my OG was 1.070.

also, I pasteurized to 160* as I don't have access here to camden tablets or the UV radiation method. Will have to see how it turns out as I only brought the cider to 160* and then immediately let it cool. It took a good 20-30 minutes to get it to 160, so my pasteurization may not have been as complete as it could have been. As for aromatics... smelling the cider through the fermentation lock, it smells fantastic.

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