Does anyone have a guideline for the percent of Vienna malt to use in the total grain bill? I've seen recipes from NO Vienna malt at all to as much as 70% Vienna. However, I can't seem to find a style guideline that suggests any sort of percentage of Vienna in the grain bill.

depends on your recipe Dave.

Vienna Malt can be used in place of standard Brewers Malt as the base malt in a brew. This malt contributes a slightly more malty, grainy flavor and a slightly deeper golden color than standard Brewers Malt. The increased malty flavor balances nicely with higher-hopped, higher-colored and fuller-Bodied beers. Vienna Malt may be used as a base for all beer styles.

The enzymes are sufficient to support the addition of high amounts of Specialty Malts and Adjuncts.

For Pilsner beer, use 10 - 30% Vienna Malt for color and malty flavor.
For light-colored amber beers, use 60 - 90% Vienna Malt along with a percentage of Cystal or other malts.
For amber-colored amber beers, use 70 - 80% Vienna Malt along with a percentage of Cystal or other malts.

Even 100% Vienna Malt if you want.

hope this helps!
Lawrence

depends also on WHAT STYLE beer you are trying to brew and what flavor and color profile you want.
in the end the amount you use is up to you the brewer, thats what makes this hobby so much fun, yes there are guidelines that a lot of brewers use to brew a certain style of beer, but I would think that all the recipes vary in one form or another, more Vienna, less Vienna, just a matter of taste.

I've made a couple with all Vienna malt. Turned out kinda in the range of Dos Equis amber, which I love.

The style would be Vienna Lager, as in the style that resembles an Oktoberfest / Marzen beer. Negra Modelo is a commercial example of a Vienna Lager. I'd prefer one like it, just not as sweet. The Negra Modelo I had recently was a bit too sweet for me.

Dos Equis amber is alos a Vienna lager, but not as dark as Negro Modelo.

Hey Denny - I'm a big fan of Dos Equis amber also. Do you have a recipe?

Thanks

Bob

OK - I checked out a book about Vienna Style lagers. According to the authors, the grain bill should consist of 75% pale, 2-row malt, preferably a pilsner malt. The remaining 25% should be darker malt, and surprisingly, NOT Vienna malt. The authors of this particular book indicate that the Vienna malts produced today are typically made with an inferior quality barley. The authors indicate a good crystal malt should be used to achieve the slight sweetness and appropriate amber color. Go figure.

Now onto recipe formulation... Oh, and the preferred yeast appears to be Wyeast 2206.

FWIW, I have a vienna in secondary now. I also read the VMO style book and did my usual researching. I used 55% pils, 18% vienna, 18% light munich, and then some specialty.
I fermented with 2206 in one and 2308 in the other.

Bryan - sounds good! Let us know how it turns out. I had to read the rest of the book and then come up with a recipe. What what the hop / hop schedule?

Dave, I bet that's the Fix VMO book...you can ignore most of what he says about recipe formulation, because it was written so long ago that today's malts are very different. I bought it for the Ofest info and was really disappointed. When he says the "malts of today", it's actually quite a bit in the past. It's too bad Fix isn't around to do a revision.

This is going by my initial recipe, though I might have changed it in promash which is on a different PC: 1oz Styrian at 60min, 1oz tett at 40, 1oz saaz at 20 and at 7min. Sounds a bit weird, but it's mostly a scaled down version of my multi-award winning octoberfest. But if I was going to suggest hops, anything that's noble would be preferable.

Denny - that's the one. I am not impressed with this book at all. I really love the Vienna style lagers, and I was hoping this book would lend some insight. It depicts an interesting history, but the authors suggestions on malts are a bit strange.

Would you say the "Vienna Malts" available from home brew suppliers do in fact have the toasted character the style calls for? It seemed odd to skip Vienna malt altogether in favor of crystal malt.

Dave, I'd say you'd be a whole lot closer using Vienna ,alt than the pale/crystal combo reccomended in the book. I went back and looked at my copy yesterday...it was first published in 1991. A lot has schanged since then, and this book in particular has been the subject of a lot of comment on HBD. In spite of the effort that Fix put into it back then, to say we can't get good quality continental malts these days is just wrong. I believe even Fix himself had changed his opinion.

Denny - do you think, then, that the 75% pilsner ratio is not a classic representation of the style either? The book mentions Moravian barley, which Fix indicates is now called "Pilsner" malt. Do you recommend using Vienna as the primary base malt, and then using specialty grain for color, etc.?

Dave, there are several ways you can go, and I think any of them will make a beer you'll really like. Options would be something like 50/50 or 75/25 pils/Vienna, or even all Vienna. I'd suspect that Dos Equis Amber is closer to the latter. Based on my experience with an all Vienna beer, I'd recommend you give that a try. I really like the all Vienna I made. You could certainly a bit of crystal for body or an oz. of roast or carafa to get the color of a Negro Modelo.

I'm toying with the following - critique away!

8# Vienna malt
1.5# Munich malt
.5# Wheat malt
2oz Roasted Barley

1oz Hallertau (60mins)
0.5oz Tettnang (20 mins)
Wyeast 2206

If you wanted to make a beer that tastes like Dos Equis your probably better going with a grain bill that is primarily pilsner (90% Pils/10% Vienna) with a touch of color malt. Since they are a large brewery I bet they also use adjuncts of some sort. I have brewed viennas with primarily vienna malt and they ended up with a more flavor than any Dos Equis or Negro Modelo I have tasted. Too bad you did not decide to brew this beer several months ago, White Labs had a Mexican Lager (an American Pilsner would be a good substitute)strain availble. If you want to make an historical interpretation of vienna then I would go with your receipe and use a german yeast culture.

I don't want to make a Dos Equis. The 2206 culture seemed to be the strain of choice for Vienna's. What other strain would you recommend?

One of my favorite lager yeasts is the 2308 Munich Lager strain. If you use the Bavarian it will end up with more toast and spice character than the Munich. Also, I suggest you do at least one or two short decoctions. Beers I have tasted that use a large percentage of vienna or munich malt and that have been only infusioned mashed tend to have a grainy flvaor as opposed to a more malty character with decoction beers.

I've never done a decoction, but I'm willing to give it a try. I have heard the 2308 produces alot of diacetyl as well and I assume would require a rest. I like the toast/spice profile so I may stick with 2206. I'll have to read some more about each one and see.<br>
<br>
Decoction "How To" is my next assignment.

I have never experienced the reported diacetyl problem. Just make sure you lager cold, fridge temp 44-47 deg. (ferment temp will be around 48 to 52 deg.), and after the beer has reached final gravity, slowly lower temp couple of degrees per day (the books say you need to do this, but I never pay that close of attention to it) to 36 to 40 for a week or two and then finally rack of the yeast and then lager until your ready to drink. If you pull your beer of the yeast to quick then you can end up with diacetyl and this can happen with any lager yeast, not just the 2308.

I have cleared an area of the unfinished part of my basement for another freezer (temp. control is on its way). Then I'll be able to properly ferment and lager.

Any tips for the decoction?

Dave, I'd get rid of the wheat, and change the roasted barley to carafa or carahell. That's just my opinion- your recipe would work just fine.

Bryan - that's an interesting alternative. Why use carafa or carahell as opposed to roasted barley? And why no wheat? Just wondering what your thinking (or is it just simple preference)?

Good thing you mentioned again the use of roasted barley I missed that one. I would suggest not ever using roasted barley as a coloring grain, unless you want a smoke flavor. I have tasted beers that use roasted barley as a color malt and it comes across as a light smoke flavor. Use carafa, chocolate, or black patent that have all worked well for me just be vary carefull on the amounts. I suggest using promash to dial in your SRM, so you don't go overboard.

Excellent information! I have Promash, and I *thought* the roasted barley would be good (it certainly did add the color I wanted to hit my desired SRM). I guess black patent is better (though I should really read more about carafa, carahell (what the hell) before I rule them out. I'm just not familiar with 'em yet.

I found an excellent article on decoction mashing - doesn't seem so complicated anymore. http://www.strandbrewers.org/techinfo/decoct2.htm

Now I'm all psyched to try this. I should really brew the wheat that I have at home first though. So many beers, so little time.

carafa and carahell are considered german grains. They're kinda on the same level as black patent (but smoother) and crystal respectively.

Why no wheat? "The only ingredients used for the brewing of beer must be Barley, Hops and Water. Whosoever knowingly disregards or transgresses upon this ordinance, shall be punished by the Court authorities' confiscating such barrels of beer, without fail." ~ Reinheitsgebot

It's just tradition. Like I said, your recipe will work just fine and produce a great beer, I'm sure. But if you want to be very true to the style, then do it the German way.

Bryan - absolutely, I agree. The only reason I thought of wheat was for head retention. But I'm all for going authentic.

Thanks for the insight!